February 12th, 2006
More Criticism of Hybrids: Buy One, Keep a Guzzler Running
By Michael Santo
Contributing Writer, RealTechNews
Long-time readers will recall Alice’s post last year titled The Truth About Today’s Hybrid Cars: They Don’t Save Money. Since I thought about, and then analyzed a Prius, I knew this already. It just takes too long to make up the extra expense of buying the car in the first place, and also, the mileage figures, because of the way testing is done, are quite overstated.
The New York Times (via News.com) talks about this, and more, and made me think about a few other things as well.
Because of CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), every hybrid means one more gas guzzler to offset the hybrid. Of course, a Prius is not in the same category as an SUV, they are in different categories with different standards (the minimum average for cars is 27.5 miles a gallon; for SUVs and other light trucks, it is 21.6). But every Ford Escape hybrid means you can sell a Lincoln Navigator.
Additionally, a lot of people who are buying the Prius already have an economical car. A Prius will save 250 gallons annually over a Corolla. SUV owners could stay with an SUV and save more even more gasoline (gallon-wise).
An SUV that gets 16 miles a gallon, like the Cadillac SRX, uses almost 600 fewer gallons annually than an 11-mile-a-gallon Hummer H2, because small differences add up when gas is being burned so quickly. Source: The New York Times via News.com
I honestly do not know why anyone needs (not wants) a Hummer. More info from the story: the EPA is changing their testing to give more realistic mileage figures. However, as the story linked above says: “The Department of Transportation makes the fuel-economy rules–the ones that actually matter–and it’s not planning any changes. It will proceed with the fiction that the Prius gets 55 miles to the gallon.”
We Say: I’ve been considering a Prius, but not because of the mileage … I already have a Corolla … it’s because I can use the carpool lanes (sad but true). Oh, and here’s something no one talks about. Did you know that heavier SUVs are banned by California law on many streets? It’s all here in this Slate article from Aug 2004. Read the full article. It’s pretty interesting.
Many streets have signs that prohibit vehicles over 6,000 pounds. Before anyone says, “how can they know that? I might have 3 people, or 5 people, or just me,” it’s based on the gross vehicle weight rating, which is the the weight specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle. So it’s truly not an arbitrary number. Oh, and before you say, “hey, that sign says no trucks over 6,000 pounds!” That’s what an SUV is classified as, remember? My big point is that Hummer H2 is a) illegal, b) doing a heck of a lot more damage than my Corolla to streets … which is why the weight restrictions were put in place originally. I’m not saying ban them, but why not force them to pay higher registration fees? If they can afford a Hummer, they can afford extra reg fees (’course, we know how well that went over last time California tried to do it).
Jeff Green says:
Hi,
There is a lot more to a Prius than just saving gas.
1.
There is 90% less pollution that with a comparable new car in the show room. This helps the more sensitive living on this planet.
2.
As a country burning less oil adds to our security. Less dollars would be going into countries that don’t like us.
3.
Less oil drilling rigs would be needed to gather up the oil for our needy country. How quickly we can tear the earth to get what we need. To need less would be easier on the environment we live in.
4.
The Prius is the next step into the future. Soon batteries will be cheaper and more powerful. We can run more on electricity than gas. Wind electricity could easily provide more than 50% of our electricity. Further reducing our dependence on oil.
There will always be resistance to what the future is bringing. Good things are coming down the pipe that will be easier on the earth, safer for our country, and eventually cheaper to operate. The future of cars is changing to a new way of thinking. I invite everyone to consider their part in how to make transportation better.
Jeff Green
4.
February 12th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
MarcosV says:
I really find the tax breaks for business vehicles over 6k lbs to be grossly abused. You can start out with a huge Lexus SUV, get the full tax write off, and then sell the vehicle and come out slightly ahead of what you originally paid for it! A friend of mine did this.
The tax break should be appealed. If farmers desperately still need this tax break for their farm equipment, give them help some other way (like we’re already doing with farm subsidies).
Hopefully by the time I need to buy another car, the cost of hybrids will have dropped sufficiently to make them more cost efficient.
February 12th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Wendell says:
We do not need Hybrid acrs The tehnology id here and has been here since the 50″s wher as v-8 engines can get up in to 50 plus MPG Range. This whole thing with oil companies andf the car manufatures is a ripp off and we should demand our governmnet to enforce this altraedy known technolgy.
The problem is we all know that monet talks, so this technolgy is locked up in their vaults. WE as a nation will go down because of this corporate greed. Mark My words
Wendell
Minnisota
February 12th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Tom says:
You don’t know if they need hummers?
If they can afford a more expensive car, they can afford a higher tax rate?
Well Robin Hood, hopefully you’ll get what you want and you’ll be whisked off to a nation where everyone gets the same fair treatment by only receiving what the ruling party feels each individual truly needs and nothing more.
I’m with Wendell the mispelling conspiracy theorist, we’ve been invaded and conquered by unnatural life forms called corporations. We need to criminalize corporate entities before the people are further trivialized.
side tech note… I remember seeing small dashboard solar panels for tricklecharging your standard 12volt system…. I wonder how useful dashboard panels could be for topping off classic hybrids. (electric cars that maintain voltage with gasoline or deisel generators)
February 13th, 2006 at 4:28 am
MissingFrame says:
You do realize H2s are only a marketting gimmick, right? Nobody _NEEDS_ one any more than someone _NEEDS_ a Ferrari, and believe me, I’m about as close to that _NEED_ as possible!
February 13th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Bob De Jonge says:
Hybrids are an excellent step in the direction we need to go. Period. They are open-ended technology-wise in that they can accept future improvments in batteries and/or plug-in options. They can move using multiple forms of energy (i.e. gasoline or electricity) so are more flexible in terms of consumption.
Also, I would certainly like to see the data to back up the “50mpg V-8″ claim! FYI — going down a 8% grade with a 20mph tailwind and getting 50mpg for 1 mile doesn’t count!!!! Guess what a Prius would get in those conditions!!! — infinite mpg, as the motor would shut down and not use any gas at all!!
On the EPA mileage ratings — as long as all cars are tested in the same test protocol, it’s fair. These numbers are for relative comparison only. I’ve seen people get much worse fuel economy in a Prius and others get much better, all dependant upon how they drive. Whether the new test will be more realistic, I have no opinion. You can certainly create a test loop where the hybrids would get lower economy than the current numbers. But, conventional cars/trucks will suffer the same fate.
February 13th, 2006 at 9:25 am
Snopesman says:
The high mpg car from the 50’s is an urban myth. I mean, come on and think about it — if GM could make a 50 MPG Hummer why wouldn’t they sell it? It would be a tremendous competitive advantage - “Bask in the safety of 6000 lbs of steel while still getting 50 MPG from the Hummer with it’s giant V8 engine”.
Sure, hybrid tech doesn’t make financial sense now, but has anyone noticed that crude is flirting with $70/barrel again? When gas is $3.50 / gallon, the payoff period becomes shorter. And in places like Europe, where gas is $7 gallon already, the payoff is even quicker.
References:
200 MPG carbuerator:
http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp
Current crude prices:
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html
Current US and European gas prices:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html#Motor
February 13th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Alice says:
Is it wrong to want this?
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=3ep6uh6o3fc31?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=MG+T&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc07a&linktext=MG%20TD%20Midget
February 13th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Stephen says:
1) Hybrid vehicles get the best mileage in city driving not highway. Thats when you are running more off of battery power. When you are on the highway its all gas engine and your mileage then depends on how you drive. Do a lot of highway driving and your mileage with a Prius is about the same as with any thifty vehicle.
2) Don’t count on massive amounts of wind energy providing electricity. There’s way to much NIMBY’ism going on currently. There are several proposals for big wind farms off the coast of Massachusetts and they are being opposed by the wealty inhabitants of Martha’s Vineyard who don;t want their view spoiled by wind turbines on the far horizon. Same thing is happening on land also. Everybody wants the electricity but everone wants someone else to have to look at them.
February 13th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Ramsey says:
The criticism of “Robin Hood” is flawed. If someone decides to buy a Prius, thereby doing their part to reduce emissions and dependence on foreign oil, then it only makes sense to offer tax incentives to encourage this behavior. In Economics this known as a positive externality, because people not involved in the transaction (to buy a Prius) benefit from that transaction. All good public policy recognizes the benefits of encouraging positive externalities.
It is also in our national interest to get payment from those people who choose to buy H2’s and such. They are increasing our national demand for oil, which drives fuel costs up for everyone. They are tearing up roads, which increases taxes (or gov’t deficits) for everyone. They are polluting as well. This is a negative externality, because people not involved in the transaction (buying of the H2) bear costs resulting from that transaction. All good public policy recognizes the need to tax transactions that bring about negative externalities, for two reasons - it offsets the cost taken on by “innocent bystanders” and it discourages the costly behavior. But good public policy is not always politically expedient.
February 13th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
John says:
If SUV’s were listed as trucks you could NOT buy an automobile license plate for them and they would have to pull over onto scales as all trucks have to do.
February 13th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Snopesman says:
You mean like all the pickup trucks that are indeed, trucks, but bypass the scales?
Criticism of SUV’s as SUV’s is silly. In our household, we have a Honda CR-V and a Subaru Impreza WRX. Which one gets better mileage? The CR-V. Which one is more fun to drive? The WRX, of course!
February 13th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Snopesman says:
I live in Massachusetts and I concur with Stephen’s #2 point — the NIMBYism is really astounding down there in Nantucket Sound, considering that the wind power project could power most of the Cape demand. I guess people would rather have smog than barely-perceptible wind turbines on the horizon. I personally think that the wind turbine is one of the most graceful bits of modern design, turning in the wind and generating clane power without a lot of the other problems that power generation generally brings.
February 13th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
John says:
\big difference between pickups and trucks.
February 13th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
fjr says:
Has it ever been considered or studied, that we might want wind for something other than electricity?
February 13th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
lanzdale says:
In my family we have now driven three 2000 Honda Insights over a combined 240,000 miles. This car is slightly different from decent hybrids (Prius and Civic) and very different from other hybrid “style” vehicles (Lexus, Ford, Accord, etc.). It’s not expensive and it really does get close to its advertised mileage. Our combined lifetime average is now about 57 MPG. They cost about $20,000 each, maintenance costs have been low, reliability high. They’re comfortable (albeit 2 seats) and perform more very well. A few times we’ve had to hold our noses and rent an SUV or truck for a special trip, costing us in all about $1000. But even deducting that and assuming gas costs $2 / gallon, we’ve saved over $20,000 in gasoline alone over what we would have spent driving SUV’s for the period. (240,000 / 57MPG = 4210 gallons @ $2 = $8420 vs. 240,000 / 15MPG = 16000 or $32,000 ). Do the math yourself. Gas costs more, the savings are higher. No tricks, that’s it: Three drivers, five years $20,000+ not spent on oil, enough to buy one of those other “vehicles” you mention here.
February 14th, 2006 at 12:13 am
Tom says:
I’m surprised no one has brought up the jaw-dropping resources spent on researching, designing, and manufacturing these hybrids…
Additionally, I’d rather the public money was spent on mass transit and bicycle lanes. The US has enough potential energy stored in its collective waistbands to significantly reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels. (me included)
February 14th, 2006 at 5:11 am
Snopesman says:
A SUV has a lot more in common with a pickup than it does with a commercial truck that must stop at scales.
February 14th, 2006 at 5:48 am
Snopesman says:
Bike lanes are wonderful when you live in a place where it doesn’t snow for 3-4 months out of a year. Also when you live in a place where regualr commuting distances are bike-able. Also when you don’t have a couple of kids to drag to school before you get to work. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to bike to work every day. But I live in a region where it’s commonly freezing/cold/rainy, and the only affordable housing was 20 miles from work, and we made a concious decision to buy a smaller house, so we would consume less resources and have a better family life — and we still are busting the budget to do so. There are zero mass transit options for me that are viable — they would at least double my commute time each way, and I’d still have to drive to the train station.
I love the outdoors and nature. I conserve. I recycle. I am an avid runner. I am a member of the AMC. But I’m realistic. American cities are not European cities. They are built around the automobile, not based on people walking and horse-drawn carriages. Americans also love the freedom of the automobile. Solutions therefore need to encompass the automobile if they are going to be successful in the US. Bikes and mass transit just don’t work here.
February 14th, 2006 at 8:30 am
Drivers Ed Direct says:
Our driving school in California has been using several Toyota Prius since June of last year for driving lessons. Each Prius drives a few thousand miles per month and they each average 45-50mpg. Most of our driving lessons are done on surface streets in the city or on residential streets and the Prius does get better mileage there as others have commented. The EPA is definitely off with their MOG estimates, but most of us are driving hybrids for the environmental and social benefits in addition to the fuel savings benefit.
February 22nd, 2006 at 12:12 am
Lockergnome's Tech News Watch says:
Plug-In Hybrids Bill Signed Into Law In Minnesota
Michael Santo of RealTechNews writes: We’ve written many times on RTN about hybrid cars, but something we haven’t written about is the plug-in hybrid. A plug-in hybrid is one in which extra batteries are added to the car, to extend the time at which …
June 20th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Leonard Dalton says:
While OPEC continues to loot western countries our government continues to FAIL in protecting the U.S. OPEC raises prices and may bankrupt our economy assisted by heavy U.S. taxes on fuel. Why the self seeking congress can’t act to protect our way of life via lower fuel taxes and alternate fuels is beyond me. I’se regusted!!!
July 26th, 2006 at 7:15 am
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July 27th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Plug-In Hybrids Bill Signed Into Law In Minnesota ~ Tech News Watch says:
[…] We’ve written many times on RTN about hybrid cars, but something we haven’t written about is the plug-in hybrid. A plug-in hybrid is one in which extra batteries are added to the car, to extend the time at which it can run in fully electric mode. The drawback is that it has to be plugged in at night to recharge, as the normal recharging measures can’t keep up. Such a car, however, can get twice the MPG that a hybrid can. […]
March 28th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
matthew richo says:
I hate to be the cynic here guys, but has anybody here noticed that the prius’ body shape is distinctly different. It also has a bright blue and very distinguishing badge on the back that lets everyone behind you know it’s a hybrid…
God forbid you drive a hybrid car and not let everyone know that your saving the environment!
Give me a hybrid Valiant Charger and I’ll happily buy one. In the meantime.. I’ll continue driving my Carby fed goodness!
July 20th, 2008 at 9:41 pm